S4E23 - Are Healthy Relationships Transactional?

On this episode, guest co-host Dustin Solomon joins me to explore the difference between compromise and sacrifice. 

We talk about knowing your values and prioritizing what matters most, so it becomes clearer where compromise makes sense and where it starts to cost too much. We examine how compromise is necessary in healthy relationships, but how it can drift into sacrifice when the weight is no longer shared. 

We also discuss analysis paralysis, fear of missing out, and how avoiding decisions in the name of keeping options open can quietly create imbalance. 

If you’ve ever struggled to know when to flex and when to hold your ground, this conversation will give you language for that tension. 

We hope you enjoy this one. 

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello, faithful listeners. I wanted to jump on here before this episode began and apologize. There was a bit of an audio issue that I just wasn't able to fully correct. Uh, but hopefully it doesn't detract from the episode and you enjoyed anyway. Welcome to Points of Failure. I'm your host, Steve Cothran. On Points of Failure, we talk about the quiet ways things break down and what it actually means to take responsibility without losing yourself. Through conversations with others and topical episodes, we examine the patterns behind failure in work, relationships, identity, and decision making without the shortcuts or the easy answers. Whether you reflected on past mistakes, wrestling with something unresolved, or noticing a pattern you can't ignore anymore, each episode is an invitation to look honestly at what went wrong and what comes next. And today, doing something a little different, marks the first episode of our rotating guest co-host episodes. On these episodes, I'll be joined by a guest co-host today, Mr. Dustin Solomon, and he will help me break down a particular topic of failure. Today we're gonna be talking about compromise versus sacrifice. And if you want to check out Dustin's previous episode, he's episode 15. So, Dustin, what are your thoughts, sir, on the difference? I don't know, we're gonna call this the failure of not understanding the difference between compromise and sacrifice.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

I mean, I think that's probably a good place to start. My, you know, the the first time that I saw those those words put together, I think my my initial interpretation of that was like the difference between um maybe compromise and unconditional love, like where we kind of look at sacrifice as being that that sort of you're giving up something of your own, right? And like I have a problem with hot takes. And no. Yeah. And my initial hot take on that is like I don't I don't actually don't think unconditional love is like functionally applicable. I don't think that it it needs to be applied in all the ways and places that people think that it should. Yeah. And it and oftentimes can do more harm than good.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Like you're thinking like in terms of like I I I see like altruism, you know, kind of that sacrificial thing, you know, the you know, people use the example of the soldier that jumps on the grenade, okay, fine. But in general, I don't think I believe in altruism, as it were. I think that we always have a selfish motive for no matter anything that we do, however giving it can be. I don't think it's bad necessarily. So I wonder, is that like what you're thinking with the sacrifice?

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Like, is it really something that's all that I think it's yeah, I think it it's it's sort of taught and and certainly having a religious background that doesn't work for me anymore. Um you're you're sort of taught that this idea of just like constant sacrifice, right? Like that it's it's bad to entertain your ego in any way, shape, or form, right? So it's like you're just supposed to always just show up, put yourself last, put everybody else first, make sacrifices, and that's the way you do it. But I just I feel like that leads to so much more harm in relationships, in functioning societies, because you can operate that way indefinitely. Yeah, like well, I mean the grenades, you only you can only jump on a grenade once. I think so. Well, I you know, there's probably somebody out there. I stand corrected, jump on a grenade, made it through. Um, wasn't me.

SPEAKER_02 3:33

No, right? No, I I think I follow you there because um I know for myself, I look back at and not just in relationships, in in jobs, in friendships, in family, the the the feeling that I have to quiet myself. I have to give up something that's invaluable to me in order to maintain something. And we I think that state of sacrifice becomes a way of losing ourselves, like sacrificing who we are to keep someone else placated or happy or whatever that may be.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Yeah, because I think, like you're saying, like when you look at relationships across the board, having been a small business owner, um, been married, you know, that one of the things that kind of stood out, like when you were talking about compromise, another way that I kind of look at it is that relationships are transactional. And I think a lot of people flinch at that concept. Um but really if you don't find balance in there, then it's not like it has to be healthy for the whole, right? So if any one person is having to make themselves small, like sacrifice for everybody else, then you that's a part of the body, it's part of the whole that's just not being supported. And so like it can only organically grow so much, you know. And so I think that's that part of it, which is like when when you compromise, it's each person getting a little bit of something. And so it's like, okay, well, this is for you, this is for me. And like I think that's where like I start to feel like it relationships should be transactional, healthy relationships. Um, because otherwise you've you've sort of got like the giver and the taker, and not two people working towards how can they give to each other. And when you start to do that, you have to compromise on things. We'll do this today, but not tomorrow. We'll get this thing, we won't get that thing. And then you are, you're sort of making a like, okay, well, you can have that if I can have this, and then it becomes transactional, right? Like, and I think that's where you find the balance in it because otherwise it just gets lopsided.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

Yeah, interesting. I think I think I follow you where you're going with that, maybe. Yeah, yeah. Maybe expand a little bit. I'm gonna get a flood of emails about transactional.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

No, I that's the thing is like it, it's it's fun to sort of play with it that way where it's it is sort of turning it on its head, where you're you're sort of taught unconditional love is the best for relationships and transactional relationships are the worst, you know? Yeah. And I think you and you and I were kind of talking before we started about how like sometimes it's just you go through life and you look back on it and you're like, what worked, what didn't work. And that's that for me, the relationships that work, not even just like personal relationships, but even professional relationships, the ones that work the best is when everybody's stating their needs, and then you're coming to the table, compromising on the things that you're willing to give up and the things you're not willing to give up, and you you barter with the other person. And it's like you can have this, I can have that. And maybe transactional is not the right word, but I kind of feel like sometimes it's like, I'll give you this. Sure. In exchange, right? In exchange, you give me this, right? Okay, and we're gonna fulfill each other's needs by performing this transaction.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

I gotcha. But maybe I think the transaction is probably the only word to use really to to define that maybe because it's without the expectation of the return. And I think that's maybe where I get, I find myself like, oh, wait, ooh, I flinch a little bit at transaction, like you said, because I was like, huh. Because I think of the, I want to go into this like I'm giving my partner the love, whatever. While yes, to some extent, I I I want that back. I I guess expect in quotes want you know that back, but I don't do it with the expectation of getting it in return.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Right. But I think that's where relationships deteriorate. I think that's where people get hurt in relationships because you you end up with one party, one person at the party, whether, again, whether it's professional, romantic, whatever it is, you you run the risk of being like, okay, well, I'm gonna give to you, expecting nothing in return. But the problem is that eventually you have to have something in return. You cannot give indefinitely. And so I kind of feel like it's a lie we tell ourselves that we don't expect anything in return, but we do because you can't, you know, like I can't work for my clients for free for forever. Right. I might, I might do a job for them for free just because I'm a nice guy. I want to see them succeed, I want to give them a little something to get ahead. But if I keep doing it, I won't make it. Sure, yeah. And at some point you're getting nowhere. And so I expect something in return because if I don't, then I have to leave. And and so there is a built-in expectation because of the limited quantity that you can give to any particular thing. And I think that's where you end up with like people in relationships that um they feel lost, they feel unseen, they feel taken advantage of because they start out with the good intentions of giving unconditionally, but you shouldn't do that.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

No, yeah, I agree with you there. I don't I don't believe in unconditional love. I don't think that's a thing because at some point I can say I love you unconditionally, and then, you know, okay, she cheats on me every weekend or she takes my credit card and you know runs it up and you know, these horrible things happen. I mean, okay, I mean, you know, at some point there's a condition on my love, you know, okay, I'm out. You know, so yeah, yeah, I I see your point there. I am and you know, I I think the idea, the notion that we don't have any expectations is uh, you know, on the surface, it sounds great, don't have any expectations. I say manage your expectations because I've learned to I have the expectation of of you know somebody being good to me, but I don't base everything that I do on getting that back. Uh because then if they don't, then I just use it as information as opposed to being disappointed. Like, I mean, I'm human, I'm still disappointed, but I don't fall apart, oh, my life's over. Well, I probably did, you know, not that long ago, but I've grown. And so I you know, I see it as a um what is it, expect nothing, accept everything, right? And so Yeah, I've got expectations, but at the same time, I accept it if somebody's not gonna meet those, and I just move on to the next thing, I guess. Aaron Powell Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Which I think that's the healthy answer to it, right? Is that like owning that transactional component and when you're not receiving, then that's you just you just accept that truth and go, this isn't for me. Yeah. Like I need to find something that is for me, something that's got balance too. And Dustin Solomon hates love.com.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

Exactly. Is that taken? Um somebody's gonna find it. No, the opposite is like I'm I'm probably on a lot of levels a like a hopeless romantic myself. Like I love that that connection with people and and maybe like just across the board, even like on a professional level, but it certainly took me decades of realizing that it's okay to to draw your lines and be like, or even just to list your needs. Like that was just so hard. It was always like, ah, just you know, I'll just it's fine. I don't want to be selfish. And and I challenged myself too, because you know, I kind of touched on it. Like, I mean, how much is that as like a sort of a dysmorphia from from a religious upbringing? Oh, yeah, 100%. Like, and and the, I don't know, the the unfunctional nature of that concept that just kind of puts you into a place where you're not being true to yourself. And I found like the more that I get away from that, the more that I allow myself to own the things that I want in my professional relationships, personal relationships. I'm not really great at it. I'm still learning. I'm still getting that. But the more that I do that, the actually the more space I feel like I have for other people. Yeah. Like I can actually give more when I make sure that I have what I need. And I probably learned that lesson from my business partner. So 13 years ago, one of the first lessons that he conveyed was when you're on an airplane and the airplane's going down, the instructions you're given are first put on your mask and then put on everybody else's mask because you're no good to anyone if you don't have what you need. If you pass out, you can't really help out. Yeah. And so it's like, yeah, if you're if you're in any relationship, professional or personal. I don't think there should be any shame in owning what you need, right? Like you can probably do better loving, supporting, caring, you know, if you're sort of demanding that ballot in a relationship.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

I yeah, I totally agree with that. I think that um, what is it, the I hate to use too many metaphors, but the you can't pour from an empty cup, right? And so yeah, I think at some point, and the the boundaries, I think is that that most important piece. I just I just did an episode talking about the, you know, the kind of the difference between kindness and nice. Um, and I think, you know, we're I think it gets mixed up, and maybe I'm being a bit semantic or pedantic or whatever the word is for it. But I do think there's a distinction and I think it's boundaries. I think that's what it comes down to, that one's a value set and it's boundaries. And so to your point, I think that transaction maybe is is that line, right? That it's sort of a, you know, this is as far as I can go if you don't meet me there. And, you know, if you're not gonna meet me there, fine. Okay, cool. We don't have to do this thing, but I need you to meet me here. And yeah, I agree with that. I agree with I think we're with where you're going with that. So taking sacrifice and saying, because I, you know, yes, we both grew up religious, and I know exactly what you're doing. I know what you're talking about. Compromise, how do we how do we distinguish where the compromise is? And because I think compromise, if you're not careful, can toe that line and become sacrifice, and we call it compromise.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Sure. Yeah, because you're you're compromising things that you would otherwise not, yeah, right. And maybe does that just like fall into the category of like what are you trying to accomplish? And maybe that's the the beacon.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

Interestingly, today, uh, I was having a conversation with someone, and this is kind of jumped in my head, and I'm gonna play devil's advocate to my own concept about unconditional love. But I think the the the piece you carve out for that um might actually be your kids. And the reason why the conversation we were having, because uh my kids joke about this all the time, like I'll I'll give them crap about something, and uh they both will look at me and be like, we didn't choose to be here. Oh, Jesus. Right. Like, and we have a great relationship, we have a ton of honesty, but that's the truth, right? Like they didn't choose to be here. Like I drug them into this world and sort of forced them into whatever lane that my life was currently in, right? So if there's probably anybody that that deserves some level of unconditional love, and maybe kids, you know, you know.

SPEAKER_02 14:24

I wonder if kids do that for their parents too. Because I, you know, if you probably if you ask my kids, they probably like, yeah, dad, don't worry, we'll always love you no matter what. Yeah, that that makes I think that, but then okay, all right. So I'm gonna push back again. What about tough love? Is that is that unconditional? Or are we is that a does that even I don't want to does that even apply? I wonder. I'm just kind of throwing it out there.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

But my initial reaction to that kind of goes back to what you were saying about compromise and having like a beacon. I think that that question always kind of comes back to like what are you trying to accomplish? Right. And I think you know, sort of tying back in sort of religious roots, there was always like a an agenda. Yeah. There was always a trying to make people, I mean, even if you just cut it back to the basics and you're just like, we're supposed to like be in the image of Christ. That by itself is saying that you have to change and conform yourself to a goal, to a standard, right? And that extrapolation, I think, is where that gets dangerous. And so tough love, I think a lot of times falls into the category of, well, you're not becoming the person I wanted you to be. So now I got to bring the tough love. But is it really in that person's interests, or is it in the interests of the person who's bringing the tough love? Right. And I think that's the question that all parents have to ask themselves is am I listening and doing it really truly for my kids' benefit? Or is it just that this fits more into the mold of what I, my preconceived notions of who they should be, what they should be doing, and I'm just trying to make them be what I want them to be.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Yeah. You know, and I I, man, I I uh I think one of the things that makes that so difficult, at least it was for me, um, coming out of, you know, religion, sorry to the religious people, but you know, this is what it is. But coming out of that world, that self-sacrificial thing and that imaging, like you said, and yeah, the whole thing is it feels like it's just predicated on lose yourself. It's not about you at all. You're not a thing, right? You become this thing so that you can get accepted. And I I think that it makes it so difficult moving into adult relationships growing up as a kid in that. Uh, and then transferring that information and saying, okay, now I'm raising kids, you know. And I, man, I struggled on both sides of it because after, you know, I went from this is the absolute truth, and then I came out of it and I was like, no, that's all wrong. This is what, you know. And so I kind of went down both both ends of the spectrum there. And so I kind of worked my way back to the middle. But I think by then my kids had grown up and figured out on their own. But anyway, I'm rambling. But the point that I'm getting at is that I think when you have lived in a space of I don't matter, I have to make someone else look good. I think that has a a deleterious impact on how we then connect with other people, whether it's our kids, uh, whether it's our romantic partners, business, whatever. So I yeah, I I I think that's gosh, that's probably one of the hardest things to break out of that mold.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

Again, yeah, I think that's that's that kind of weird twisted loop of of that that sort of sacrifice cycle is that it's it's misplaced so often and can be taught to be like the only way to go. Yeah. Because I going back to the tough love thing, I know I I to answer your question, I think that that's mutually exclusive. I don't think tough love and unconditional love can exist because tough love has a condition. Sure. Right. Yeah. And so by default, it can't be unconditional because you expect something on the other side.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

That's true. Of it, you know. And the expectations that weren't met previously or what led to the tough love. Right, right. Um, you know, interesting side note, and this may or may not apply, but I'm thinking of something that I I heard today. I heard a really great distinction between religion and primarily Christianity and uh non-religion, you know, secular, atheist, whatever. And the fact that in religion, you can be forgiven for things, for deeds, for words, you know, saying something that you said or done, but you can't be forgiven for who you are. If you're, you know, gay or trans or whatever. Religion doesn't give you forgiveness for that. Where being in the secular world, maybe sometimes there's not a lot of forgiveness for deeds done, but there's total acceptance. Well, I mean, for the most part, there's acceptance for who you are. And I don't know that that maybe, you know, talking about unconditional love, but I I don't think we'd want to condition our affection on who somebody is at their core. But you know, I mean, I just I found that an interesting distinction today. I don't know how it applies here. It was just rolling in my head, but I found that interesting.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Yeah, that's an interesting take where it's it's and I and I think, man, all of a sudden I'm afraid we're gonna go like that. It was compromised sacrifice, guys.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

Now it's Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Yeah, maybe we'll just uh hold on to that one for another time.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Pinning that topic. The failure of religion coming down June 2025.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Six, seven, date, whatever. Right, but well, I only because the part that does does tie in is it's it's weird because um I think that's a tenant of religion and and and a couple of other things is that that there is no compromise. It's all sacrifice. Like you have to, in order to to fit into a mold, you literally have to strip away everything that's you to become, you know, the standard, right? And there's there's no like compromising with the standard. Um, and I understand why, and that's a whole nother, you know, mall lax. But um yeah, I think I think for functionally, I think that's why to just like look at our current political climate, even is it's just we've lost the ability to compromise. Yeah, like there is no more compromising. It's everybody on this side, everybody on that side, duking it out, yeah, expecting the other side to make the sacrifices. And yeah, I mean, kind of trying to loop back. I mean, I feel like it used to be, you know, even in politics, it was like uh I saw this really cool chart that was like red and blue circles. And the bigger the circle, the more legislation that particular person brought to the table. And then the closer to the center, the more that they had to collaborate with other people to get the policies done. And it was animated over time. And and a hundred years ago, it was a bunch of blobs all mixed together in the center. And as you watch it over time, it's just turned into these giant blobs on opposite sides, you know, of the graph. And it's because we've just we've stopped compromising. And and I don't, yeah, I don't know where we lost it along the way, but I I definitely think that that's the the piece going back to that transactional concept where it's like, and maybe it's that that you know, when we don't honor the compromise component, we don't honor that like it's okay to ask for something, make sure you're giving and make sure you're getting. Yeah. And when you stop doing that, that's when things start to fall apart. And prioritizing the giving and getting and making sure it's in balance.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

Yeah, you know, I think I think of when you say that giving and getting and making sure really both sides are giving and getting. I think of, you know, some of the first things I learned in my negotiation. I took negotiation classes when I was at the the big worldly giant retailer and some other things. You know, the big one. Oh, the big one. Yeah. The big one. Uh and then um and I, you know, I've read I actually read uh, what is it, the complete negotiator. I can't remember his name. For whatever reason, I just wanted to say Nuremberg, but I know it's not right. It's something like that, though. Anyway, those are for trial for people who don't compromise. That's right. Yeah. Maybe that was subconscious. Um but anyway, the in this in that in concept of negotiation, one of the things they teach. Is that your first goal is mutually beneficial. Your the first thing you want to do is to, is to have a set of things that in your pocket you're willing to compromise on in order to cede ground to your, you know, to your uh, I don't want to say opponent, but the other person negotiating. Um, and that way it's, you know, if your goal is to win, win, I'm going corporate here, um, then I think that's a you're better off, right? You're going to have a better uh end result. And I think to your point, what's happened with the transactional piece is we've gone to this zero-sum game where in order for me to win, you have to lose. And there's no common ground. And I think a big part of that is because we've lost the art of conversation. We don't have honest discussions where like you you have to ask questions. You know, I I've been in conversations where I'm talking to somebody and I ask a question and they just, whoa, because it's a it's a contentious subject, right? But the only reason I'm asking is because I don't know. I don't know the, you know, the answer, right? And so I'm trying to understand how I engage. And I think that's I guess one of the biggest problems that we have is like I can't we we can't seem to ask real honest questions to understand. We're just, you know, it's got you's everything's a trap, you know. There's no, yeah, the the bubbles aren't in the middle anymore. They're way out on the sides, like you said. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Yeah. Right. And because I think that's a sort of tangential conversation, but it's that, you know, the the concept of like we fear the thing that we don't understand. Right. Um, and so when you don't understand somebody's side of a situation, of a topic, whatever, like you in inherently fear that thing, right? And the fear drives you to think about all the ways that it's gonna take advantage of you, like usurp your position, takeaway your whatever it is. And so then, yeah, like it does, it just instantly goes to the zero sum game where, or if you're even if you're asking questions, it's really just to gain leverage and find a way to like dominate the situation, not to educate yourself because like if you if people did stop ask questions openly to understand the other person, I think you you quickly it's like much easier to find that middle ground.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

And for you were looking for information instead of intel. All right. So we've heared a little bit, but that's all right. And I tend to do that. Compromise. How do we, how do you distinguish in your world um the difference? Like, where do you, how do you draw that line? Like this is where I'm compromising, but if I get over this line, then I'm now I'm sacrificing. And is sacrifice, I mean, we can make this a different question to come at later, but be thinking, I suppose, is sacrifice always bad? Sure.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

No, I yeah. Uh I'll throw my hot takes on that. Try not to take the long road there, but uh there's there is this book concept thing that I kind of dabbled in years ago. It's just called the passion test. And uh in super short form. It was basically list out 10 things that you want to be do or have in life, and then you you just compare them. If you you could only ever have A and you could never have B, or you could have B and never have A, which one do you choose? Right, and you pick one and you just prioritize your list. And at the end of the day, the thing at the top is your most like ultimate desire, need, whatever. Yeah. And so I I think that's the homework. If you're gonna compromise or even own sacrifice, I think it's the homework for each person to do that, understand what that list is, whether it's professional or personal, and be like, these are the things that I need. And then when you're talking to the other person, I think it's it's it's sort of finding the value in that item. Like, what's its worth to you and what's the worth of the thing to the other person? And it's like, okay, well, if I'm gonna give this up, like so that you can have, if I'm gonna give up my number one thing so you can have your number one thing, then I'm gonna need my number two and number three things. Sure. Like, and if those are in conflict to you, then you need to give up your number two and your number three things because you got your number one thing, right? And so it's like it's trying to identify these values that for yourself and you're trying to accomplish. And I think that's how you build the compromise is is finding some squishy value on what that is.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

I think that makes sense. You kind of because I I and I I will say I think that because I've been working on this myself, uh, I think one area that we make a big mistake is that we don't actually know what we value. And I think that's a massive failure for probably virtually everybody, you know, is that we it takes so long in our lives to come to a place where we can say, oh, this is actually what I value. We always think of, you know, what do you value? Oh, I value honesty. Yeah, okay, sure you do, but you lie all the time, mostly to yourself. So you don't value it that much, you know. So, but I mean, you know, really knowing what is actually important to me. And then that way, to your point, making that list is is it's easier than to have that conversation because you know, okay, you've kind of already gone into it by prioritizing, right? You already know that one's important, but two and three aren't that big of a deal, but four is uh kind of important too, but you know, so you know where you can compromise.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

So well, and and then even on the sacrifice end, that helps you know, like these are the things that I'm willing to sacrifice. Like these may be the things that, you know, uh on any given day they might be important to me, but like in my core, so like I can give this up, you know. And I think it it's not even intentional sometimes. Like things like sometimes unintentionally the number of times you talk to people and they're like, you know, a relationship will fall apart because one person in the relationship wanted uh to be an artist and they never got to take our classes, right? And then they just build and it builds and it builds, and then one day they snap and they're like, I just I've lost myself. I gotta, you know, and it's and it's like I think it's because like when we don't do that self-reflecting, we don't do the homework to sort of prioritize our needs, we can let that build over time. Yeah. And without presenting that and putting that on the table and being like, sure, like I may want to do this thing, it might disrupt your schedule, it might disrupt your whatever it is. But if this is important to me and we don't own that, I think that's where it's like, and then sometimes I think it's like the fear of owning it because you're like, um, well, if I say that this is important to me and the other person doesn't agree, it this can terminate the relationship, right? Yeah. Um, and so out of fear, we squash it, but then it ends up being the thing that messes up the relationship. Anyway, all you've done is just kick the can down the road and then just added a couple of years of suffering in there. Um miserable, you know, but just um and so I think that's that that importance of bringing those things, knowing for yourself what's valuable, and then yeah, negotiating.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

You know, I think for a lot of people, I know myself, absolutely, and I think a lot of guys, um, just a lot of guys that I've talked to that are, you know, single and but they say they want to be in a relationship, but you know, they don't ever get in one for various reasons. But I think the key is we're afraid of not the choice, not the choosing, because choosing something is easy. The part that's hard is the fact that choosing one thing always means not choosing something else. And I think that's to your point where some of that fear comes in, like, oh, if I do this thing, whatever that may be, if I want to do A, but she wants to do her B, so I'm willing to not do A so we can do her B, oh, what am I giving up? You know, and you know, to the point of the the guys and the dating and whatever. And I know I did this myself, I found myself a lot of times not choosing. Wasn't that I didn't want something, it's that I was afraid that I wasn't making the right choice. And I think that was because I didn't know what was important to me. I didn't have my set of values. Um, so yeah, I I think that there's that, I agree with you, the fear of, ooh, you know, did I make the right choice? And what am I missing out on? There's a um, oh, where'd I hear this? Uh I'll probably get this wrong, but I heard this um sort of a like a metaphor once that you come to a road and you look, it diverges right and left, right? And you can look down the left side and you can see at the end of the left side, there's this gorgeous beach, a beautiful ocean, you know, it's it's just amazing. And down the side to the right, there's these beautiful mountains and waterfalls and whatnot. And you have to pick one. You can't pick up both, you can only pick one. And the problem is like, oh, but if I do the beach, I don't get the mountains. If I do the mountain, you're right. So you you're just you're just, you know, analysis paralysis, right? You're just stuck, you're frozen for fear of missing out on something instead of just choosing something, you know, because who knows? Down the road, maybe the roads twist, you know, and you go back, no, I got the mountains. Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

Yeah, I mean, because I feel like when you think of those things, only you always have that like one smart ass person. It's like, well, I'll have like a beach house with a collar mountains, right? You know, and I'll just go between them. Like, what's wrong with all of it?

SPEAKER_02 30:36

It's like Tahoe, bro.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

It's like, uh, okay, sure. Yeah, you can find holes and analogies or whatever. But I think that that's the you bring up an interesting point. I think there are a lot of things in life that are mutually exclusive, you know. So, like looking at the relationship thing, like like like freedom is lonely, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Um if you want to be with other people, if you don't want to be alone, well then you have to compromise your freedom. Like you don't get to just do whatever you want, whenever you want, wherever you want. You have to work within the confines of other people because you've chosen to be in a communal setting, right? Or but if you're free, not everybody, nobody's gonna be able to just do everything that you do at the exact same time that you do it whenever you want to do it. So like you can't have both. Um one is mutually exclusive of the other. I think that that's that's probably the most debilitating. Like, I don't even have an answer for like I wake up every day and go, okay, like, do I really want this? Yeah, you know, because once I choose this, yeah, that's the road. This is the road, right? And then you kind of have to just like lean into it and embrace it and trust. You know, not to say that you can't ever sure change. You can as long as you telegraph that to other people, right?

SPEAKER_02 31:45

Yeah, absolutely. Was it who was it that could your your freedom statement reminded was it Bukowski that said that? Of you when you come home, every time you come home, if you don't have somebody there waiting for you, do you call that freedom or loneliness? I think it's I think that's how it goes. No, I did not credit that, but that's legit. Sorry, but is Bukowski still alive? I don't even know. Um this is how literate. I mean, actually, I I like to read books anyway. Yeah, uh, I think I I do that's uh the freedom, I think, is a big piece of that. Um, because yeah, I mean, sure, uh, I'm single at home, whatever. I've got all the freedom in the world. I can do whatever I want, right? I can go out and party till 3 a.m. But I don't know. Sometimes I think like you said, want to give you hard love over that one. Or tough love, sorry, whatever. Hopefully not hard love. Rated immature. Uh yeah. So I mean, I I I think what you said is right. I think freedom, I think it is lonely. Um, you know, I mean, I mean, there were times for sure when I was, you know, had my freedom, if you will. It was lonely. It was lonely. But I think I began to learn that sometimes that loneliness was just solitude and it wasn't that lonely. Um, I think that I think the I think what we're afraid of is not so much the thing, whatever the thing may be, the choice or lack of choice. It's how it's going to make us feel at the end of the day. It's really just comes down to how when I come home by myself because I'm freedom, do I feel lonely? Probably, you know. So yeah, I I it comes down to I guess knowing what you want and what you're willing to give up to have what you want. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

I was about to say, like interestingly, also all of a sudden becomes sort of like meta in the sense that like that that freedom loneliness choice comes down to like if you don't want to be, you know, lonely, then you instantly have to start compromising and sacrificing. Yeah, you gotta sacrifice your lone time. Those, yeah, like those things just instantly form in that bubble right there.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

Yeah. Yeah. Of course, uh, we call it we call it our our uh our solo time. Solo Sundays, that's what we do. Or solo Saturday, it depends on our schedules. Yeah. But yeah, I mean it's uh that it so sometimes circling back, maybe sacrifice isn't bad.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Well, it's just uh maybe that just falls into that category of too much if anything is bad. Sure, you know, too much compromising too bad, too much sacrificing can be bad. Yeah, yeah. Too much transacting.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

Yeah, too much transacting. Transactions are great.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

Exactly. Uh so um okay, so let's do this. What if you had what do you have rather two, three things that you use as sort of uh, I don't know, lighthouses in the bay for you, you know, to to make sure you're staying on on course. Like I'm, you know, I'm not compromising too much, not sacrifice too much, I'm I'm walking that line. You know how old I am, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:38

It's that time of life when nothing makes sense. Yeah. All the lighthouses have turned out. There's no fire line that gets ran out of oil. What am I doing again? Um my kids are all grown. Um I've been doing this professionally for how long? Like during twilight years my job. Well, maybe not that soon. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

I'm I've I've crested it, man. I'm I'm I'm I'm turning 50 this year.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Oh yeah. We're not gonna call that. We're just gonna kick it. Twilight will be 50. Okay, yeah, perfect. Yeah. 50 is a new 20. Yeah, I don't know. Like, I I mean, again, not to get you know off on on that tangent, but I mean I've I've been deconstructing my faith, my purpose. Yeah, like I think that's that's been really, really hard in the sense that the whys start to change, you know, um, in the things that I'm doing. And that really is drives what I'm willing to compromise and sacrifice. Yeah. Um, you know, I think that's still a discovery process uh at the moment. Fair enough. I haven't turned around and have much of you.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

Uh man, you know, um right now my biggest thing is I just keep coming back to something uh a therapist said to me once is uh what is it, three questions he asked me? What do you want? What are you doing, and how's it working for you? And that's kind of what I keep running through my head. Anytime I come up, I mean, you know, I can it's not like I'm constantly questioning all my choices, but when I do re approach something, I'm like, huh, okay, who and how do I want to be? Like, how does this align with the person that I say I want to be? You know, so that's kind of the only thing I have, right? In terms of measuring, does this match? Uh that's it. I mean, does this does this align with what I what I say that I I believe or that I will say I want. So kind of the only thing I've got. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

I think I'm still working on the finding out what I want. Yeah. Um I I that used to be like crystal clear for the longest time. And it really made it easy to make a lot of decisions and stuff like that. But I think at this point, it's it's a lot of am I sure like of what those things are. So it makes it a little bit harder to prioritize.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Yeah, man, I I am uh it's funny because for, you know, you you've built your your company and over the years, and that was, you know, probably very likely your driving force for a long time. And I found myself where I didn't do that. I was I was lost really for most of my most of my adult life, 20s, 30s. Kind of started to figure it out in my 40s, but I was still real slow to execute, you know. And I think I was slow to really learn. Um, so yeah, now I'm kind of like that. I'm like, okay, I think I finally got finally got my head in place. Uh it's like now I have this almost new vision, sort of like where can my life go? And it feels limitless, but then it also feels like there's a great big like chain on my belt.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

So this is an interesting question. Do you feel the older you get, do you feel that it's easier or harder to compromise and make sacrifices? Harder. I don't think it's harder. Why why would that be?

SPEAKER_02 37:52

I think for me it's harder because I I spent a solid, you know, 30-ish years of my life constantly sacrificing and staying small and not ever really speaking up like this is what I want, what I don't want. Um, and so now I think uh I I told my therapist that I I've swung from the nice guy one side to the other. I've gone ditch to ditch, right? Now I'm in the asshole ditch, you know. I think I've I think I've softened up a little bit. I don't think I'm quite as much of an asshole as I have been in the past. But it's still, I'm still kind of like, no, I haven't made my way back to the center yet. I'm still like every now and then I step back in that ditch, you know. So I think that's kind of where I'm at with that. It's just harder sometimes. Now, strangely, uh, in the relationship I'm in now, it isn't difficult at all. We actually have really, really like sometimes I'm like, okay, what's is this like a prank? Is somebody pranking me? Like, am I gonna somebody's like, ah, it's not really a relationship. She's a paid actor, you know. So because it's it's wild. You know, we just we have really good communication. So I don't, I don't find it difficult to compromise there. Um, I think we're both really good about, you know, speaking up and talking about what's important to us. You know, like I said, we have our solo days ourselves, we work on things, and she's really good at giving me time to do this podcast. Um, but everything else, yeah, I'd say harder by you.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

That's an interesting reflection, kind of like listening to you talk about it because um I would say that it's it's probably easier now to compromise and sacrifice. Like I've gotten better at it through practice, how and when to apply it, but I it's gotten harder to want to do it. Um and and sitting here in this moment, just kind of processing it, I think it's actually because, and you you mentioned like our twilight years, thank you for that existential moment. But I think it's it's because it was easier when I was younger because I had all the time in the world. As I get older, each compromise and sacrifice is a bigger slice of the remaining time of the pie. Right. Yeah, that makes sense. Um, and so I I do feel this growing pressure to be more judicious about how I compromise and sacrifice because I'm like, well, I'm only gonna get to do it for so much longer. Yeah. Um, you know, so it's easier to do, but harder to want to do it.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

Interesting. And that's that's sort of the inverse for me. Like it's I I want to more, I want to be able to, but there's just like this part of me that's like, no, you do that for too long, man. What about you? And so yeah, it's uh like I wanna, and I think I still do compromise sometimes, but I wonder if some of those compromises aren't just sort of like the default. Like I just instantly did it, and then later I'm like, well, okay, I'm just gonna pat myself on the back for that one.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

Yeah, right, right. And you can only carry that for so long. The paths only are so so nice until the paths start to feel like beatings. Yeah, you're like, oh, I'm beating myself again. Self-flagellation.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

I feel better. All right. Well, any um closing thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 40:47

Anything you want to Wow, that's always a tough one. It is. Um I I don't I don't think the needles moved. I think that relationships should be transactional. I don't I don't think that's my that's my closing thought.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

Uh Eastoloman at gmail.com. Send your emails there.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

Yeah, no, don't don't send any hate mail to Steve. Just that one goes straight to me.

SPEAKER_02 41:05

Uh yes, exactly. All right. Well, so great. Then uh I'll uh I'll leave you listener folks with this question, and I guess you too, Dustin. What kind of person are you willing to be if nothing is guaranteed? Be honest about what's happening, take responsibility for your part, and don't let pain turn you into something smaller than you are. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time on Points of Failure. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please share it with anyone you think might also enjoy it. And if you like the show, please consider supporting it. It's the support of listeners like you that keeps us going. If you'd like to help, there's a link in the show notes. I'd like to thank all of our guests who've taken the time to have these conversations and share their insights on failures, both personal and professional. If you want to follow the show, the website is www.points of failure.buzzproute.com. And you can find us on Facebook and Instagram as failurepoint and on Twitter as failurepoints. Please like and share, and remember to rate and review the show on whichever podcast platform you use. The ratings and reviews really help and keep us going. If you'd like to contact us directly with questions or guest suggestions, you can email us at failurepoint at gmail.com. Again, thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time on Points of Failure.